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Mike Gantt

I love John 3;20-21 - if one can be said to love something that disciplines so severely.

To think that walking with a consciousness of the Lord Jesus' loving and righteous eyes upon our hearts has such a powerful cleansing and disinfecting effect on the thoughts of our hearts. It truly is a life-changing concept.

I didn't gather that from the Rob Bell video. However, perhaps he's a better understander and/or communicator than I am. If others see his video and are drawn to Christ, then I am quite happy.

Unspecified Gender

If a person seeks to use a third party singular pronoun for a referent of unspecified gender in modern idiomatic English, they are not doing a singular-plural switch if they use the pronoun 'they'...

Carl Kinbar

Thanks, John. Your implicit translation theory is exemplary; I intend to use this in my next class. Or can you point me to a post that deals similarly with a Hebrew text?


Unspecified Gender,

I make the same point in my post. That is, if you begin with a singular and switch to a plural, you have not pluralized the subject. However, if you pluralize from the start, you have pluralized the subject. Pluralizing the subject in this passage drains it of part of its thrust.


Hi Mike,

Living with an awareness that we do so coram Deo, in the presence of God, is essential to a healthy life, but the thrust of this particular passage is different. Perhaps you are overlooking it.

Are you able to affirm that for many, in fact for all, their come to Jesus moment involves not only an awareness of past sin, but also an after-the-fact ratification that a great deal of what they had done "without God" was actually done in God?

Rob Bell captures this dimension of theo-anthropology well. Most evangelicals do not.


Hi Karl,

Try my posts on Psalm 1.

Mike Gantt


If you're saying that evangelicals tend to bifurcate life into that which came before the sinner's prayer and that which comes after, seeing God inactive in the former and active only in the later, then I see your point and agree with it. And I agree that this passage affirms it.

However, given that these words are Jesus' conclusion to His interaction with Nicodemus, and given that Nicodemus had come to Him "by night," I have to believe that His fundamental point is that living coram Deo (that is to say, in the light and not in the darkness...or night, a point Nick would surely catch) is the right path. That is, movement (change) is in mind. Corum Deo is not merely a state of being (that would be to adopt the evangelical view) but rather it is a progression toward greater and greater light and we submit more and more of our thousands of daily thoughts to His view.

That God may help us do right even in our darkness is comforting - but especially because to Him who has, shall more be given, we can be comforted even more by coming closer and closer to the light of Jesus. That is, in coming to the light we have, we will find more and more light.

As comforted as I am that God has been active in my life even when I thought He wasn't, I am even more comforted by the hope that shall know and understand Him better as I submit every thought I have to His loving and righteous sight.

Sorry for the quantity and clumsiness of my words here.



Thanks for pushing back. You are right that the entire chapter goes beyond the particular emphases of the conclusion.

I differ with you with respect to the chapter as a whole in that I see a greater emphasis there on what God does than on what we do (or don't do). That's one reason why I like Rob Bell's video. It is about God's song, the melody he plays in and through us and despite us whether we are aware of it or not.

There is much salvation in knowing that such is the case; the gospel is for hearing. But God saves apart from our hearing in anticipation of saving through our hearing, now or in the age to come. Another scriptural teaching overlooked by many Christians, but the teaching is clear as punch.

Mike Gantt


Because I believe that the Scriptures teach that everyone is going to heaven I can fully embrace what you are saying, even though our respective emphases may lie in different places.


You and Origen (but not Rob Bell). Always good to chat.

spielautomat trick

Eigentlich ein brauchbarer Beitrag, nur kannst du beim nächsten Mal ein wenig ausführlicher sein? Das wäre in der Tat genial :)


Ich finde es wahnsinnig, dass mein Beitrag interessant bei Ihnen scheint.

Gary Simmons

I agree with your argument here, John. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with presents and perfects in GJohn when it's in an explanatory section rather than the narrative. But, preserving tense concordance as well as lexical/thematic concordance should definitely be important for a book so centered around key concepts used fluidly -- such as "water and spirit" earlier in the chapter.

Though there was always a BBB post on the matter, I think it's probably impossible to get across the utter ambiguity of the expression.

Side note: is "lest...should" correct archaic grammar? I had never heard it in conjunction with "should".


I had never heard it in conjunction with "should".

Gary -- it is a pity you have not yet had a chance to read the KJV -- when you do, you'll enjoy Ephesians 2:9.

It will also be a revelation when you have a chance to read Shakespeare -- I'm sure the first line of Sonnet 72 will stand out.

Similarly, I hope someday you have a chance to read Milton -- I know you'll like the argument (preface) to Book 9 of "Paradise Lost."

PS: I don't agree that "lest" is archaic. It is a word that often I use.

Mike Gantt


I'm so glad you spoke up for the currency of "lest." I was so disappointed when the 1995 edition of the NASB removed it, presumably for being arcane.

It's such a useful word, even if it sounds a bit formal.

(Perhaps people today simply consider formality archaic?)



Lest I perpetuate a case of mistaken identification, I should note that Theo is the one standing up for "lest," not me.


Forgive if this sounds like I'm veering off of your post, but for whatever reason the translation of "one" or "many" reminds me of Psalm 1. I googled and checked your translation of Psalm 1 and I see you use "everyone" which could be perhaps "every one" - and I note that you use "everyone" here also for the translation of this bit of John.

My interest is language in a sense and the psychological impact of language upon us, I suppose. But also the spiritual impact of language. How it shapes us. How the "Word" dwells within us - and shapes us.

So for whatever reason, having read your post, this passage from John will (now) always make me think of Psalm 1. One is in Hebrew, one in Greek of course. And I know neither. But how powerful it is, it seems to me, that the Spirit (in the language) affects us individually and does not just speak to us as a conglomeration. In Psalm 1, it actually seems that the evil doers are a conglomeration, whereas the one who seeks YHWH is spoken of as an individual.

For whatever reason this thought reminds me of how dictators "play" upon groups as a kind of mass hypnosis - and evil becomes so insidious in both word and deed. The frailty of the "lone voice" under such conditions. The "lone voice" and the Power of the Light. The difference between the Assembly of the Righteous perhaps (like the Body of Christ) as NOT a conglomerate but Persons individually exposing themselves to the Light and thus entering into a different Life (together).

I'm groping for something here and I'm really not certain if I'm making sense. (but it's what struck me in your post)


Your eye is lucid, Thera. You see what I was trying to point out - and you see much more, and very well, beyond that.

I see your point about "everyone." I will change "everyone" to "every one."


Oops! I now look back at your translation of Psalm 1 - and I goofed. You do clearly say "the one" (not everyone) I think I was mistakenly looking twice at this post (even though I have the other window open as well).
Even so... I think my point actually is accentuated, since so many translations miss the "one" in Psalm 1 - just as you say they do in John.


Quick theological question...

so their deeds may be seen
to have been done in God.

What does "so their deeds may be seen
to have been done in God." mean?

Specifically - "done in God" - what does that mean?

Chariots of Fire 5

I know this is a bit of topic, but when I read this post my only though was why do translations add words? The only reasoning’s I can come up with is that the way they write it is actually what they read or they add words to make their perception of the verse more notable and easier for others (who do not always understand the language of the Bible, like me) to understand and make interpretations of the verse.

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