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Dunash ben Labrat

Ali Ahmad Said

Verbal System of Ancient Hebrew

The Bible as seen through the eyes of . . .

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Bob MacDonald

John - the phrase 'resurrection of the flesh' is an odd one, flesh being such a polysemic word (see the comment here for 5 separate meanings). What distinguishes body from flesh? So we have this treasure in earthen vessels - and anointing in the body - but "in my flesh dwelleth no good thing".

'in my flesh' in the AV occurs in several interesting contexts outside of that Romans passage - Job 19:26, ומבשרי אחזה אלוה and Psalm 38:3 and 7 - a good psalm for 'remembering' where the phrase מתם בבשרי is a frame. I would interpret the words of the poem - flesh / bones / loins in parallel as standing for 'me' so giving support to the whole 'me' in Paul's phrase - (I see that the negative has been transferred from verb to noun in the translation of Romans 7:18 - I always feel a twinge of uncertainty when this happens). Then Paul uses this phrase positively in Galatians 4:14 and Colossians 1:24 - both problematic passages in their own right.

The 'resurrection of the body' is the wording of the creeds and is itself ambiguous - is body the plurality of the church or the singularity of Jesus or our individual bodies together and singly - ?

Bob

JohnFH

Hi Bob,

It's nice of you to pursue this. You know I choose my words carefully.

De carnis resurrectione is a common title given to an anthropological locus in classical theology. Based on Ezekiel 37 and 1 Corinthians 15, I would want to tenaciously preserve the literality and earthiness of the metaphor, but it is a metaphor, in the sense that spiritual bodies are at stake. On the basis of the same two scriptures, the two corporal dimensions of which you speak both have a place, with individual resurrection understood to be meaningless without collective resurrection, and collective resurrection devoid of content without individual resurrection.

This means that Judaism and Christianity have a concept of the last things in strident contradiction with that of, say, Hinduism and Buddhism. Personal identity and collective history have an enduring place in the former, but are transcended without remainder in the latter.

Hansen

I'll be happy to tell you what passage in what language radically changed my life, "Our Father which are in heaven" in the KJV. That's all it took, when the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, brought an awareness of sin, guilt, and judgment, to bear on my mind.

"Our most salient agreement is that we regard all serious study of the biblical text to depend on intimate familiarity with the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek originals."

How do you define an intimate familiarity with the [original language]?

Are you suggesting that those who are not "intimately familiar" with the original languages can't do serious Bible study?

You men must be real geniuses if you are intimately familiar with the Hebrew and Greek OT and the Greek NT. I studied with one Orthodox Jewish man who had read Hebrew from his youth. When I would recite to him a verse from Moses, he would, in his mind, translate it back into Hebrew, determine its location, and then tell the class where to find the passage in their English translation... of the torah.

Another teacher, with a fluent knowledge of Hebrew had what I considered an an intimate knowledge of certain books, such as Esther and a great number of Psalms. And that was after decades of study.

It is certainly possible that they wasted too much time studying extra biblical writings in Hebrew.

There are large portions of Scripture with which I'm not intimately acquainted in English, after decades of study. I actually thought I was doing serious study all those years. What was it that I was doing? Am I really that dumb?

I thought that the people with whom I study the Bible in China were doing serious study, since they are moving from darkness to light, from unbelief to faith, and from the power of Satan unto God. Stupid us. We are not even studying in their native language and certainly not in the original or even the LXX.

Any particualr edition of the LXX required, if we ever do get around to serious study such as you do?

Lucky for them that I recall how one passage in English changed my life, seriously.

mokumalef

Pardon my French - but isn't it "Our Father who ART in heaven"? Makes a whale of a difference otherwise ...

JohnFH

Hi Hansen,

Thanks for commenting here. I get your point loud and clear, but I don't think what I am trying to say and what you say are incompatible.

My sense is that you will agree that commentaries, handbooks, atlases, carefully done translations, and other helps to understanding the Bible are not to be scorned. All of these helps are written by scholars who are intimately familiar with the biblical text in the original languages. Can you imagine serious Bible study without these helps? I take things one step further and point out how important it is to read the Bible directly in the original languages side by side with these helps. There are many details of the text that get lost in translation. So if you are interested in those details, learning the languages of the Bible becomes imperative. That's why so many seminaries require at least some knowledge of the biblical languages.

That doesn't mean God cannot speak to you through a paraphrase like the Living Bible, for example, which was prepared by someone who had no direct access to the source texts. In fact, God speaks to many people through comment on the Bible more clearly than through the biblical text itself, or the text on its own.

In fact, the whole idea of reading the Bible for the purposes of hearing God's word for you outside of a tradition of reading it, without the help of believers, and without the benefit of the efforts of scholars of the text, seems ludicrous to me.

Hansen

Mokumalef,

I still remember the text to have said, "which art in heaven". Even then, the way I understood it was "which art". Either way, it clearly illustrates that the Holy Spirit can actuate the word in any language to transform the life of a sinner. [I apologize for my poor editing skills. I can review a post several times and still miss the obvious i.e, "which are in heaven." duh]

Jesus said, "The words I speak unto you are spirit and life." Is the spirit, which makes the word valuable, lost in translation? Will I receive less of the spirit if I read in translation or more if I can read the original language?

I reall hearing Billy Graham preach many years ago. I don't recall a single reference to the original language in his sermon, nor do I recall any sophisticated teaching which could only be understood by referring to the original languages.

I do recall the convincing power of the Holy Spirit and the impact that it had on my life and the life of a friend who attended with me.

When the Psalmist said, "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path," it was clearly illustrating the capacity of the Word as a spirit containing vessel.

"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or the hearing of faith?" This idea is found in various parts of the Bible. The purpose of the Bible is to bring salvation to those who believe it. Scripture is a means to an end, the salvation of sinful souls.

I've seen lots of Jews kissing, venerating, perhaps worshipping the torah. For what? Once the God who is revealed through torah is rejected, torah is worthless. Doesn't matter what language it is in.

Hansen

John, I have, through the years, often considered the possibility that many "scholars" do not actually know how to study the Bible. That's why they become scholars, to try to figure out what is obvious to those who do know how to study Scripture.

As an undergraduate, in theology, I had a considerable dislike for certain "scholarly" professors and their boring tomes about the Bible. I was astounded, in seminary, to discover that a classmate would write a term paper on the gender of a certain name.

Even more amazing was spending nearly half the term dealing, not with the text itself, but with peripheral material which one could read in any decent discussion of the topic. I left the course wondering whether the professor even understood the text. He certainly offered no profound insight into its meaning, although ther books he recommended reading did, bless his soul.

I'm interested in the meaning of the text itself, more specifically, the redemptive elements of the passage in question. Granted, Scripture is studied by many scholars as a humanistic document without consideration or special attention to its redemptive elements

For example, in the story of the prodigal, the returning son receives a robe, ring, and shoes, from his Father. Why? What do they signify? Do you understand any more clearly than someone without an "intimate knowledge" of the original language what those things mean?

Another example is the book of Job. Perhaps my limited exposure to academia has deprived me of some common knowledge; however, no "intimate knowledge" of Hebrew was required to figure out that a central theme of Job is justification apart from the law.

Yet in a brief review of her own dissertation on Job, the scholar doesn't even mention the centrality of justification nor Job's scant reference to law, commandment, ordinance, or statute. This in a denomination being torn by conflict over those very subjects.

The view you expressed regarding the requisite "intimate knowledge" of original languages for the serious Bible student is a pernicious and destructive one for a pastor.

What kind of effect does that thinking have on the unwashewd hoardes who comprise the majority of believers? It's like the KJV only advocates.

People, who find the KJV language off putting may end up not studying Scripture at all, if they believe that the other versions are corrupt.

Do you consider your congregants a bunch of Bozos who can't seriously interact with Scripture because they lack the sophistication of those who have an "intimate knowledge" of the OL? If so, I suggest that you strengthen your ties to academia. You might need them.

JohnFH

You cut an absurd figure, Hansen. You think of yourself as a son of the Reformation. The phrase "justification apart from the law" rolls off your tongue. Yet you contradict Martin Luther at every turn.

Everyone except you knows that Luther and Melanchthon and the magisterial Reformation tout court valued knowledge of the source texts in the original languages. With. a. passion. L and M, furthermore, were academics themselves. They did not traffic in the easy, guilt-ridden, false dichotomies you do.

Here is a quote from Luther (from the 1530s, from his Table Talk):

„Die ebräische Sprache ist die allerbeste und reichste in Worten, und rein, bettelt nicht, hat ihre eigene Farbe. […] Wenn ich jünger wäre, so wollte ich diese Sprache lernen, denn ohne sie kann man die h. Schrift nimmermehr recht verstehen. Denn das neue Testament, obs wol griechisch geschrieben ist, doch ist es voll von Ebraismis und ebräischer Art zu reden. Darum haben sie recht gesagt: Die Ebräer trinken aus der Bornquelle; die Griechen aber aus den Wässerlin, die aus der Quelle fließen; die Lateinischen aber aus der Pfützen.“ (WA TR 1, 524.21f., 525,15-20, vgl. auch WA TR 6, Nr. 6805).

I assume you know German; if not, I can translate the passage for you. For now, I will translate the operative phrase:

"without it [the Hebrew language], one can never rightly understand Holy Scripture."

I did not express myself as strongly as Luther did. Schade. It's not me you contradict. It's Luther and the spirit of the Reformation in the best sense of that word. If you can read German, I recommend this article:

http://www.bibelwissenschaft.de/nc/wibilex/das-bibellexikon/details/quelle/WIBI/zeichen/l/referenz/25188/

If not, you might start here - though Laird is not a particularly helpful guide to understanding Luther:

http://www.glaird.com/luth-heb.htm

I have no pleasure, Hansen, in those like you with enormous gifts of projection.

Hansen

John,I disagree that one must have an intimate knowledge of the original language to do serious Bible study. Luther spent a lot of time translating the Bible into ....German. And Tyndale into English. Why, if Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic are the real target languages?

In China, some churches offer two baptisms, sprinkling or immersion. Would you further restrict immersion to those, who, like yourself, have an intimate knowledge of the OL?

A friend of mine's brother, a Christian, was killed during the Cultural Revolution. According to you, he couldn't do "serious" Bible study because he didn't read Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic.

He didn't have an intimate knowledge of those languages. He did know enough Bible to get himself killed. Perhaps they were just joking around when they killed him for his faith, if that is indeed what happened.

Whether I have to go to a priest for explanation from the Latin or to someone such as yourself for explanation from the Hebrew, seems like the clerical class still holds the keys to the kingdom.

Getting back to the robe, the ring, and the shoes, please illustrate for us unwashed ones how the OL illuminates the redemptive significance of these ordinary items.

The only person I've ever heard clearly answer the question hardly knew the difference between an interlinear and parallel version of the Bible.

He did know something about rightly dividing the Word of truth, something which I remain unconvinced many "scholars" know how to do.

Every denomination has its hired guns, scholars who peddle whatever their denomination pays them to sell. Sad, when so many people are going down to hell without Christian knowledge in any language.

JohnFH

Hansen,

You continue to pose false alternatives.

Luther spent a lot of time translating the Bible into German from the original languages and introducing the study of those languages into the educational system of the churches because he was convinced that "The Jews drink out of the original spring, the Greeks drink out of a rivulet flowing from the spring, the Latins, however, out of the puddle."

Luther and Tyndale never intended their work of translation to replace the study of the Bible in the original languages. As Luther's words make clear, he knew translation to be a poor substitute, however important and necessary. Luther and Tyndale knew that serious study of the Bible begins and ends in the original languages.

You have taken a path Luther and Melanchthon never took, a path they learned to scorn, given where it lead among the "enthusiasts."

I can only assume you think you have a lock on the redemptive significance of robe, ring and shoes according to some half-baked allegorical interpretation. Suit yourself.

Go and read Matthew 13:52. When you have taken its message to heart and changed your tune accordingly, get back to me.

mokumalef

Hello Hansen,

My comment concerned purely a linguistic matter. If you invoke the KJV and then say: "Our Father which are in heaven", instead of “who/which ART in heaven,” you make a singular into a plural. So, your “are” in any case should have been “is”. In the end, as you explained, it was probably a simple typo. I only noted it because this is an example of a “scribal error” which carries potential meaning. In this case, the singularity or plurality of the Deity, and that question in itself has a whole interpretative history, as you may well know. Anyhow, I am not interested in the theological issues that you raise, only in the linguistic aspects of a little phrase.

Hansen

Mokumalef, Thanks for nicely illustrating one point and being honest in doing so. A certain number of people, in this case, yourself included, are not interested in the thelogical issues of Scripture. Scripture is viewed from a humanistic or linguistic point of view, rather than a redemptive one.

One might say the same about Near Eastern archaeology.

In my own case, after learning how to do topical study, I considered the cost/benefis of OL study to not be worth it. I could use the languages and have a rather extensive library of OL tools which I used in the past. Nowadays, after decades of Bible study and new priorities I use the Online Bible.

John, Would you reduce Biblical symbolism to "half baked allegorical interpretations"? Only onfirms my suspicion that many linguistic types, such as yourself, really don't understand how the Bible works.

I'd be curious to learn how the study of OL has enlightened you regarding the 11th chapter of Daniel or the 9th chapter of Revelation. If you don't even understand a simple thing such as the significance of the robe, ring, and shoes in Luke, how are you ever going to run with the chariots?

Must one spend years studying OL to figure out that the robe and ring refer to the justifying righteousness of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Is that a half baked allegory?

Us ignorant slobs who aren't "intimately acquainted" with the OL would have never guessed that "Only Christ, scripture, faith, and grace" should actually be "Only Hebrew, Greek, And Aramaic."

JohnFH

Thanks, Hansen, for the conversation.

I am satisfied that I have presented the truth as I see it to the best of my ability, and so have you.

For the rest, let the reader understand. I'm confident the reader will.

R. Mansfield

[For some reason, John, your commenting system never seems to like me. I've written a response, but your site is not accepting it. I may be too long winded, so I'm going to try to break it into parts.]


John, you posted this on November 7, and here it is, eight days later and I'm just now seeing it. I tend to be too busy for my own good lately. Next time, send me a direct email alerting me to such a post, and I'll be happy to join in on the conversation :-)

I'm not going to create a separate response post, much less a rebuttal, lest some surmise we are arguing, which I don't believe is the case.

I would like to offer a small number of minor points, however, which can be considered clarifications of my position(s) on these matters.

(1) Please do not think that I have no disregard for what you refer to as the "Common English Bible tradition." I know it might seem like this at times, but it's not actually the case. I've stated before that a person's cultural literacy is incomplete without a thorough familiarization with the King James Version.

I suppose I simply spent too much time years ago working with teenagers which mix with the Authorized Version like oil with water, and that had an influence on my public use of the scriptures. For what it's worth, I no longer work with teenagers at all, but I do find myself often teaching the scriptures to people who have little background with the Bible or to people who are not really interested in the Bible. For these, especially, the translation should not be a barrier. As I said in regard to the NASB, I want to teach the Bible, not the translation.

I'd be interested to know your reasons for preferring the RSV over the NRSV. I "rediscovered" the NRSV in recent years (after using it quite a bit in the early nineties in my M.Div program). For the sake of having a foot in the Tyndale tradition, I've often toyed with making the NRSV a primary public use Bible. I'd not hesitate to use it over the ESV.

I have a nice never-used Cambridge wide margin NRSV, still in the box. It would be a near perfect Bible in my eyes if it only had the Deuterocanon. How many Baptists do you know who would say that?

(2) You wrote of me, He is happy, whereas I am not, to teach from a translation like NLT which (1) simplifies, rewords, and restructures the source text on a regular basis, sometimes radically.

Well, no. Really, I'm not. And I don't.

R. Mansfield

[continued]


Somewhere, John, perhaps there's a line between my own poor communication skills in explaining how I use one translation over another and your not reading what I've stated on these subjects close enough.

The reality is that I don't teach from the NLT. I simply don't. But I've tried. I get frustrated with the NLT for the same reasons above that you described. As I stated recently, I believe the NLT's greatest weakness is its treatment of poetry. I want to retain the beautiful Hebrew metaphors, and the NLT frustrates me when it flattens them out to their base (and often interpretive) meaning.

Reminding those listening in on our conversation, that what we're primarily discussing here is scriptures in public use, I tend to categorize such use along three different types:
(a) devotional, (b) sermon, and (c) instruction, which in my mind, I see on a scale from least technical to most technical in the order in which I listed them.

However, let me start in reverse. I've tried, and I simply have not been satisfied using the NLT for teaching, whether that's at church teaching a verse by verse lesson on the scriptures or in a college classroom for use in a class focusing on the scriptures as its subject matter. All the reasons you would offer for not using the NLT in these settings--except perhaps for sake of comparison--I'm certain I'd agree with you.

As I described in my post a week or so ago, currently I primarily use the HCSB. I like it because it is a median translation, offering the best of both worlds in regard to formal and functional, and it is slightly more formal than some median translations. This is in addition to the technical aspects of the HCSB that I've written about on my website. I'm simply of the position that median translations are the most accommodating for public use.

That's not to say that the NLT couldn't be used in this context, but it would help greatly if the majority of participants were using the NLT.

As for preaching use, which I see as a fairly passive exercise on a congregations' part in most American churches (for better or worse), I believe the NLT is a great choice--again, primarily in narrative sections--as a version that is the best representative of North American English. Of course, perhaps this varies from church to church, and what is appropriate in my church (my pastor primarily uses the NLT) may not be appropriate in yours.

And again, I don't actually preach more than a few times a year, so if I were doing it every week, I might have a different opinion.

Regarding the third level of use, devotional use, or perhaps even light homiletical use, I also believe the NLT is very fitting. In fact, this is the only context for which I'm currently using the NLT right now. As an adjunct, I teach a variety of classes. I don't just teach biblical intro classes, I also teach writing and literature classes among others. In these latter kinds of classes, I give a devotional at the beginning of every class (they are a captive audience, after all), and I generally use the NLT for these purposes.

However this past week, when taking my devotional from 2 Cor 4:16-18 (and yes, I did explain the greater context of these three verses), I opted to use the HCSB as it was simply a better presentation of the passage in my opinion.

All that above to say, John, that while you spent a lot of time in this post disagreeing with my use of the NLT, the reality is that I probably use it less than a quarter of the time when I use the scriptures in public.

R. Mansfield

[continued]

(3) When you write, "I find it easier to teach a full-bodied faith from a translation of scripture that strives to (1) preserve the pregnant metaphors and the specificity of the hebraica veritas of the OT and of “biblical” (the Septuagint and revisions thereof current at the time) and “rabbinic” Greek idioms in the NT; (2) maintain concordance in translation across passages and components of the canon; and (3) resonate with the “afterlife” of scripture in English-literate culture. This is most conveniently done from a translation in the Tyndale-Geneva-KJV tradition,", all I can say is a hardy, "Me, too!" With, of course one exception in that for reasons already stated ad infinitum, I'm not so concerned about the Tyndale-Geneva-KJV tradition as you.

Having said that, however, I should point out that when I "correct" a translation on the fly--something that you also acknowledge doing--I often add a KJV gloss if appropriate for my audience.

Currently, I'm teaching a writing class. I have at least two students with some background in the Bible. I noticed the first night of class that one of these individuals quoted the KJV every time he referred to the Bible. Picking up on that, when I've offered our devotionals, I've often included a gloss from the KJV for his sake. I'll read the passage from the NLT and then say, "Or as the KJV says, ______. " I can do this easily enough having spent the first two decades of my life in a church where the pastor preached only from the KJV. I assure you, I'm thoroughly versed in the "King's English." Every verse that I know from memory is either in the KJV or the NASB.

The other night, I took our devotional from the book of Jonah. It actually ran longer than I intended--about 45 minutes (again, captive audience)--but they all seemed rather engaged. Since I was using the NLT, as you might imagine I chose to summarize ch. 2, but we read most of the rest of it. As I read, pausing regularly to explain, offer ideas, or ask questions, regularly, I retrofitted the text back to the KJV for the sake of this student in the class who was more familiar with that version. I could do that because I am not only familiar with the KJV in Jonah, I highly respect the tradition of it, too.

In a similar vein, I have one individual in our Sunday morning Bible study who only carries the KJV. He became a believer as an adult, having had only a Catholic background before what he considers his true conversion. Since that time, he's only been in Baptist and Pentecostal churches. He refuses to join our church based on his belief that "church membership isn't biblical."

I've known this fellow for five years now. And while I would not use the KJV as a primary Bible, I don't argue with him over his decision to do so. He's admittedly not KJV-only. This is simply the Bible from which he hears God the clearest. Who am I to argue with that? Because of this, I regularly do the same thing in our class at church that I described in my classroom at IWU. I often will look at Mike and say, "Or as it says in the King James, _______."

I also often have Mike read a passage from the KJV, especially if it offers light on the text, which it does more often than modern Bible readers might suppose. The KJV's use of yefor second person plurals is extremely helpful, especially in Paul's epistles. I can see these in the Greek text, but in modern translations, they've all been flattened to the ambiguous you. Therefore, I often have Mike read these sections from his KJV and then ask the class to tell me what difference the reading makes when they understand that Paul was talking to a community of believers as opposed to one individual believer. Lightbulbs go off which wouldn't necessarily if only modern translations were used.


So there are a few clarifications, John. I thought this would be short, but I end up being too long winded on these kinds of issues. I hope you'll please pardon that characteristic of me. Nevertheless, unlike last time, I'm leaving this here in your comments instead of putting it on my post. This time, I'll be certain to look back to see if you've responded :-)

JohnFH

Hi Rick,

I don't know why typepad has such a restrictive word limit. I'm glad you figured out the problem.

My bad for not alerting you directly to my response post. I rashly assume that (a) everyone has a "google alert" on their own name, and (b) the google alert system actually captures what is out there. Neither is a reasonable assumption.

Your comments clarify many things. Our areas of agreement are wide, but it strikes me that I may have a different understanding of preaching than you are working with.

When I preach, I teach, and I teach from the text. I consider it appropriate, as I've said before, to preach from a translation that is faithful to the fine detail of the source text insofar as possible, and that sticks to the Tyndale-Geneva-KJV tradition wherever defensible.

Here's an example: Jer 2:1-3. Read it in RSV, ESV, or NRSV: as often, there are few if any differences. Now read it in NLT.

My point: NLT is a better specimen of current North American English. But since it purchases that prize by alternately embroidering on, simplifying, and erasing textual detail in the source passage, I cannot in good conscience make it my starting point for devotional reading, personal study, teaching, or preaching.

To be sure, when I interact with a biblical text in any of the above ways, I go on to make the same kind of moves NLT does, for purposes at hand. But I continue to hold dear the old-fashioned distinction between text and commentary. The clarion call of the Reformers, ad fontes, is an adventure I wish to have in all of the following venues: devotional; personal and group interactive study; teaching; and preaching.

There are several reasons why I prefer ESV to RSV and/or NRSV. (1) NRSV is not as attentive as RSV or ESV to preserving concordance. It is a less consistent translation. (2) NRSV, like RSV, departs from the MT relatively often. ESV corrects back to the MT, a plus in my view. (3) ESV, more so than RSV or NRSV, translates the OT according to the understanding of it preserved in the NT. I think this is a defensible procedure, just as I think it is defensible for NJPSV to fine-tune its translation of the Tanakh, as it expressly does, on the basis of traditional exegesis thereof, from the Targumim to Saadia.

I agree of course that the language of ESV could be updated in a number of ways. HCSB and the new NIV sometimes update in ways that might be emulated; in other cases, not so much. A brief example: Psalm 1.

On the one hand, the new NIV botches the first verse by eliminating a keyword in the source text: "advice, counsel." On the other hand, it does a better job than NRSV in maintaining a feature of the source text, in which the opposition of a "one" to a "many" is consistently maintained.

As for HCSB, I think its failure to retain the "walk, stand, sit" sequence is indefensible - here ESV shines - better yet, NIV1984!

The translation I would prefer is not NIV2010 or HCSB, but NIV2010 corrected back to NIV1984 and RSV/ESV if that makes any sense. For example, verses l-2:

Blessed is the man who does not walk in advice of the wicked, or stand in the way of sinners, or sit in the seat of scoffers,

whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and who meditates on his law day and night.

Hansen

John, I've been looking at Matthew 13:52 for a few days now.

Earlier in chapter 12, Jesus refers to those who bring out of their treasure good things or evil things. The context indicates that Jesus is referring to our thoughts regarding the Son of Man and the Holy Spirit--thoughts which result is speech which may either justify or condemn us

I prefer the passage in Luke 6:45. It explains that the treasure is comprised of the thoughts. A person may have an evil treasure or a good treasure. The nature of his treasure is revealed by his words:

Luke 6:45 "The good man out of the good treasure <2344> of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

What is important in the passage you cited is that the scribes who become kingdom disciples bring out of their [good] treasure [thoughts/ideas] both things old and new. They are different from the scribes who clamored for the crucifixion of Christ.

Perhaps you see something different or something more than I do. You've probably thought about this passage more than I have.

JohnFH

Hi Hansen,

What you are failing to consider are the specific emphases of the gospel of Matthew, in particular, Jesus' embrace of scribal interpretation of Torah even as he radicalizes that interpretation in the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 13:52 is to be read in light of 5:17 and 23:2.

To be sure, many interpreters do not read these passages in light of each other but circumscribe their import as far as possible based on an antinomian reading of Paul.

As I see it, your failure to admit that the old treasure scribes who become kingdom disciples are encouraged to draw from cannot be other than a previously existing devotion to Torah of the kind we already find in scripture - in Psalms 19 and 119, for example - and which Jesus exemplifies as well, in word and deed, speaks volumes.

Perhaps you believe, as some so-called Lutherans do, that the Law has no role on the life of the believer except to convict of sin. Note however that Luther in his Catechisms saw fit to inculcate a life of obedience to Christ on the basis of a dynamic reading of the Ten Commandments. Lutherans who refrain from doing so are, IMHO, not really Lutherans at all.

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    A thoughtful theology blog by Kevin Davis, an M. Div. student at University of North Carolina-Charlotte
  • AKMA's Random Thoughts
    by A. K. M. Adam, Lecturer in New Testament at the University of Glasgow
  • alternate readings
    C. Stirling Bartholomew's place
  • Ancient Hebrew Grammar
    informed comment by Robert Holmstedt, Associate Professor, Ancient Hebrew and Northwest Semitic Languages, Department of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations, University of Toronto, and John Cook, Associate Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary (Wilmore KY)
  • Antiquitopia
    one of the best blogs out there, by Jared Calaway, assistant professor in the Department of Religion at Illinois Wesleyan University.
  • Anumma - Hebrew Bible and Higher Education
    by G. Brooke Lester, Assistant Professor in Hebrew Bible, and Director for Emerging Pedagogies, at Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary (Evanston IL)
  • Awilum
    Insightful commentary on the Bible and the Ancient Near East, by Charles Halton
  • AWOL - The Ancient World Online
    notice and comment on open access material relating to the ancient world, by Charles Jones of the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, New York University
  • Balshanut
    top-notch Biblical Hebrew and Semitics blog by Peter Bekins, Ph. D. student, Hebrew Union College, Cincinnati OH, faculty member, Wright State University (archive)
  • Believing is Knowing
    Comments on things like prophecy, predestination, and reward and punishment from an orthodox Jewish perspective, by David Guttmann
  • Ben Byerly's Blog
    thoughts on the Bible, Africa, Kenya, aid, and social justice, by Ben Byerly, a PhD candidate at Africa International University (AIU), in Nairobi, Kenya working on “The Hopes of Israel and the Ends of Acts” (Luke’s narrative defense of Paul to Diaspora Judeans in Acts 16-20)
  • Berit Olam
    by a thoughtful Matt Morgan, Berkeley CA resident, grad student in Old Testament at Regent University, Vancouver BC (archive)
  • Better Bibles Blog
    Discussion of translation problems and review of English Bible translations by Wayne Leman, Iver Larsen, Mike Sangrey, and others
  • Bibbia Blog
    A Bible blog in Italian and English by former students of the PIB and PUG
  • Bible Background research and commentary
    by Craig Keener, professor of New Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
  • Bible Design & Binding
    J. Mark Bertrand's place
  • BiblePlaces Blog
    a spotlight on the historical geography of the Holy Land, by Todd Bolen, formerly, Assistant Professor at the Israel Bible Extension campus of The Master's College, Santa Clarita CA
  • Biblicalia
    The riches of orthodoxy brought online by Kevin Edgecomb, a seminarian at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology (Brookline MA)
  • Biblische Ausbildung
    by Stephen L. Cook, professor of Old Testament / Hebrew Bible at Virginia Theological Seminary
  • C. Orthodoxy
    Christian, Contemporary, Conscientious… or Just Confused, by Ken Brown, a very thoughtful blog (archive). Ken is currently a Dr. Theol. student at Georg-August-Universität in Göttingen, part of The Sofja-Kovalevskaja Research Group studying early Jewish Monotheism. His dissertation will focus on the presentation of God in Job.
  • Catholic Bibles
    a thoughtful blog about Bible translations by Timothy, who has a degree in sacred theology from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome (Angelicum) and teaches theology in a Catholic high school in Michigan
  • Chrisendom
    irreverent blog with a focus on the New Testament, by Chris Tilling, New Testament Tutor for St Mellitus College and St Paul's Theological Centre, London
  • Claude Mariottini
    a perspective on the Old Testament and current events by a professor of Old Testament at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, Chicagoland, Illinois
  • Codex: Biblical Studies Blogspot
    by Tyler Williams, a scholar of the Hebrew Bible and cognate literature, now Assistant Professor of Theology at The King's University College in Edmonton, Alberta (archive)
  • Colours of Scripture
    reflections on theology, philosophy, and literature, by Benjamin Smith, afflicted with scriptural synaesthesia, and located in London, England
  • Complegalitarian
    A team blog that discusses right ways and wrong ways Scripture might help in the social construction of gender (old archive only; more recent archive, unfortunately, no longer publicly available)
  • Connected Christianity
    a place to explore what it might be like if Christians finally got the head, heart, and hands of their faith re-connected (archive)
  • Conversational Theology
    Smart and delightful comment by Ros Clarke, a Ph.D. student at the University of the Highlands and Islands, at the (virtual) Highland Theological College (archive)
  • Daily Hebrew
    For students of biblical Hebrew and the ancient Near East, by Chip Hardy, a doctoral student at the University of Chicago
  • Daniel O. McClellan
    a fine blog by the same, who is pursuing a master of arts degree in biblical studies at Trinity Western University just outside of Vancouver, BC.
  • Davar Akher
    Looking for alternative explanations: comments on things Jewish and beyond, by Simon Holloway, a PhD student in Classical Hebrew and Biblical Studies at The University of Sydney, Australia
  • Deinde
    News and Discussion by Danny Zacharias
  • Discipulus scripturae
    Nathan Stitt's place
  • Dr. Claude Mariottini
    balanced comment by a professor of Old Testament at Northern Baptist Seminary, Lombard IL
  • Dr. Platypus
    insightful comment by Darrell Pursiful, editor at Smyth & Helwys Publishing, on the New Testament faculty of Mercer University
  • Dust
    A diary of Bob MacDonald's journey through the Psalms and other holy places in the Hebrew Bible
  • Eclexia
    The heart and mind of this Bible and theology blogger sing in unison
  • Eat, Drink, and be Merry
    The journey of a grad student with a love for ancient languages at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary (archive)
  • Elizaphanian
    Rev Sam tussles with God, and limps away
  • Emerging from Babel
    Stephen investigates the potential of narrative and rhetorical criticism as a tool for expounding scripture
  • Evangelical Textual Criticism
    A group blog on NT and OT text-critical matters
  • Evedyahu
    excellent comment by Cristian Rata, Lecturer in Old Testament of Torch Trinity Graduate School of Theology, Seoul, Korea
  • Exegetica Digita
    discussion of Logos high-end syntax and discourse tools – running searches, providing the downloads (search files) and talking about what can be done and why it might matter for exegesis, by Mike Heiser
  • Exegetisk Teologi
    careful exegetical comment by Stefan Green (in Swedish)
  • Exploring Our Matrix
    Insightful reflections by James McGrath, ass't. professor of religion, Butler University
  • Faith Matters
    Mark Alter's place
  • Ferrell's Travel Blog
    comments of biblical studies, archaeology, history, and photography by a tour guide of Bible lands and professor emeritus of the Biblical Studies department at Florida College, Temple Terrace (FL)
  • Fors Clavigera
    James K. A. Smith, professor of philosophy at Calvin College, thinks out loud.
  • Friar's Fires
    an insightful blog by a pastor with a background in journalism, one of three he pens
  • Gentle Wisdom
    A fearless take on issues roiling Christendom today, by Peter Kirk, a Bible translator
  • Giluy Milta B‘alma
    by Ezra Chwat and Avraham David of the Institute of Microfilmed Hebrew Manuscripts, Jewish National and Hebrew University Library, Jerusalem
  • He is Sufficient
    insightful comment on Bible translations, eschatology, and more, by Elshaddai Edwards
  • Higgaion
    by Chris Heard, Professor of Religion, Pepperdine University
  • Idle Musings of a Bookseller
    by James Spinti of Eisenbrauns
  • if i were a bell, i'd ring
    Tim Ricchiuiti’s place
  • Imaginary Grace
    Smooth, witty commentary by Angela Erisman (archive). Angela Erisman is a member of the theology faculty at Xavier University
  • James' Thoughts and Musings
    by James Pate, a doctoral student at HUC-JIR Cincinnati
  • Jewish Philosophy Place
    by Zachary (Zak) Braiterman, who teaches modern Jewish thought and philosophy in the Department of Religion at Syracuse University
  • kata ta biblia
    by Patrick George McCollough, M. Div. student, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena CA
  • Ketuvim
    Learned reflection from the keyboard of Jim Getz
  • Kilbabo
    Ben Johnson’s insightful blog
  • Kruse Kronicle - contemplating the intersection of work, the global economy, and Christian mission
    top quality content brought to readers by Michael W. Kruse
  • Larry Hurtado's blog
    emeritus professor of New Testament Language, Literature & Theology, University of Edinburgh
  • Law, Prophets, and Writings
    thoughtful blogging by William R. (Rusty) Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies as College of the Ozarks and managing editor for Journal for the Evangelical Study of the Old Testament
  • Lingamish
    delightful fare by David Ker, Bible translator, who also lingalilngas.
  • Looney Fundamentalist
    a scientist who loves off-putting labels
  • Menachem Mendel
    A feisty blog on rabbinic literature and other Judaica by Michael Pitkowsky, Rabbinics Curriculum Coordinator at the Academy for Jewish Religion and adjunct instructor at Jewish Theological Seminary (New York)
  • mu-pàd-da
    scholarly blog by C. Jay Crisostomo, grad student in ANE studies at ?
  • Narrative and Ontology
    Astoundingly thoughtful comment from Phil Sumpter, a Ph.D. student in Bible, resident in Bonn, Germany
  • New Epistles
    by Kevin Sam, M. Div. student at the Lutheran Theological Seminary, Saskatoon SK
  • NT Weblog
    Mark Goodacre's blog, professor of New Testament, Duke University
  • Observatório Bíblico
    wide-ranging blog by Airton José da Silva, Professor de Bíblia Hebraica/Antigo Testamento na Faculdade de Teologia do CEARP de Ribeirão Preto, Brasile (in Portuguese)
  • Observatório Bíblico
    Blog sobre estudos acadêmicos da Bíblia, para Airton José da Silva, Professor de Bíblia Hebraica / Antigo Testamento na Faculdade de Teologia do CEARP de Ribeirão Preto, SP.
  • Occasional Publications
    excellent blogging by Daniel Driver, Brevard Childs' scholar extraordinaire
  • old testament passion
    Great stuff from Anthony Loke, a Methodist pastor and Old Testament lecturer in the Seminari Theoloji, Malaysia
  • Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Blog
    A weblog created for a course on the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha at the University of St. Andrews, Scotland, by James Davila (archive)
  • On the Main Line
    Mississippi Fred MacDowell's musings on Hebraica and Judaica. With a name like that you can't go wrong.
  • p.ost an evangelical theology for the age to come
    seeking to retell the biblical story in the difficult transition from the centre to the margins following the collapse of Western Christendom, by Andrew Perriman, independent New Testament scholar, currently located in Dubai
  • PaleoJudaica
    by James Davila, professor of Early Jewish Studies at the University of St. Andrews, St Andrews, Scotland. Judaism and the Bible in the news; tidbits about ancient Judaism and its context
  • Pastoral Epistles
    by Rick Brannan and friends, a conceptually unique Bible blog
  • Pen and Parchment
    Michael Patton and company don't just think outside the box. They are tearing down its walls.
  • Pisteuomen
    by Michael Halcomb, pastor-scholar from the Bluegrass State
  • Pseudo-Polymath
    by Mark Olson, an Orthodox view on things
  • Purging my soul . . . one blog at a time
    great theoblog by Sam Nunnally
  • Qumranica
    weblog for a course on the Dead Sea Scrolls at the University of St. Andrews, Scotland, taught by James R. Davila (archive)
  • Ralph the Sacred River
    by Edward Cook, a superb Aramaist
  • Random Bloggings
    by Calvin Park, M. Div. student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, South Hamilton MA
  • Resident aliens
    reflections of one not at home in this world
  • Revelation is Real
    Strong-minded comment from Tony Siew, lecturer at Trinity Theological College, Singapore
  • Ricoblog
    by Rick Brannan, it's the baby pictures I like the most
  • Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth
    Nick Norelli's fabulous blog on Bible and theology
  • SansBlogue
    by Tim Bulkeley, lecturer in Old Testament, Carey Baptist College (New Zealand). His Hypertext Commentary on Amos is an interesting experiment
  • Ancient Near Eastern Languages
    texts and files to help people learn some ancient languages in self study, by Mike Heiser
  • Midrash, etc.
    A fine Hebrew-to-English blog on Midrash, by Carl Kinbar, Director of the New School for Jewish Studies and a facultm member at MJTI School of Jewish Studies.
  • Phil Lembo what I'm thinking
    a recovering lawyer, now in IT, with a passion for a faith worth living
  • Roses and Razorwire
    a top-notch Levantine archaeology blog, by Owen Chesnut, a doctoral student at Andrews University (MI)
  • Scripture & Theology
    a communal weblog dedicated to the intersection of biblical interpretation and the articulation of church doctrine, by Daniel Driver, Phil Sumpter, and others
  • Scripture Zealot
    by Jeff Contrast
  • Serving the Word
    incisive comment on the Hebrew Bible and related ancient matters, with special attention to problems of philology and linguistic anthropology, by Seth L. Sanders, Assistant Professor in the Religion Department of Trinity College, Hartford, CT
  • Singing in the Reign
    NT blog by Michael Barber (JP University) and Brad Pitre (Our Lady Holy Cross)
  • Stay Curious
    excellent comment on Hebrew Bible and Hebrew language topics, by Karyn Traphagen, graduate, Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia PA (archive)
  • Sufficiency
    A personal take on the faith delivered to the saints, by Bob MacDonald, whose parallel blog on the Psalms in Hebrew is a colorful and innovative experiment
  • The Sundry Times
    Gary Zimmerli's place, with comment on Bible translations and church renewal
  • Sunestauromai: living the crucified life
    by a scholar-pastor based in the Grand Canyon National Park
  • ta biblia
    blog dedicated to the New Testament and the history of Christian origins, by Giovanni Bazzana
  • Targuman
    by Christian Brady, targum specialist extraordinaire, and dean of Schreyer Honors College, Penn State University
  • Targuman
    on biblical and rabbinic literature, Christian theology, gadgetry, photography, and the odd comic, by Christian Brady, associate professor of ancient Hebrew and Jewish literature and dean of the Schreyer Honors College at Penn State
  • The Biblia Hebraica Blog
    a blog about Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, the history of the Ancient Near East and the classical world, Syro-Palestinian archaeology, early Judaism, early Christianity, New Testament interpretation, English Bible translations, biblical theology, religion and culture, philosophy, science fiction, and anything else relevant to the study of the Bible, by Douglas Magnum, PhD candidate, University of the Free State, South Africa
  • The Forbidden Gospels Blog
    by April DeConick, Professor of Biblical Studies, Rice University
  • The Naked Bible
    by Mike Heiser, academic editor at Logos Bible Software
  • The Reformed Reader
    by Andrew Compton, Ph.D. student in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Cultures (focus on Hebrew and Semitic Languages) at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA)
  • The Sacred Page
    a blog written by three Catholic Ph.D.s who are professors of Scripture and Theology: Michael Barber, Brant Pitre and John Bergsma
  • The Talmud Blog
    a group blog on Talmud News, Reviews, Culture, Currents, and Criticism
  • Theological German
    a site for reading and discussing theological German, by Mark Alter
  • theoutwardquest
    seeking spirituality as an outward, not an inward quest, by David Corder
  • This Lamp
    Incisive comment on Bible translations in the archives, by Rick Mansfield
  • Thoughts on Antiquity
    By Chris Weimer and friends, posts of interest on ancient Greek and Roman topics (archive). Chris is a graduate student at the City University of New York in Classics
  • Threads from Henry's Web
    Wide-ranging comment by Henry Neufeld, educator, publisher, and author
  • Tête-à-Tête-Tête
    smart commentary by "smijer," a Unitarian-Universalist
  • Undeception
    A great blog by Mike Douglas, a graduate student in biblical studies
  • What I Learned From Aristotle
    the Judaica posts are informative (archive)
  • Bouncing into Graceland
    a delightful blog on biblical and theological themes, by Esteban Vázquez (archive)
  • Weblog
    by Justin Anthony Knapp, a fearless Wikipedian (archive)
  • Writing in the Dust
    A collection of quotes by Wesley Hill, a doctoral student in New Testament studies at Durham University (UK), and a Christian who seeks the charism of chastity
  • גֵּר־וְתוֹשָׁב
    by David Miller, Associate Professor of New Testament and Early Judaism, Briercrest College & Seminary, Caronport, Saskatchewan, Canada
  • ואל-תמכר
    Buy truth and do not sell: wisdom, instruction, and understanding - a blog by Mitchell Powell, student of life at the intersection of Christ, Christianity, and Christendom
  • משלי אדם
    exploring wisdom literature, religion, and other academic pursuits, by Adam Couturier, M.A. in Old Testament/Hebrew Bible (graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary)

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  • Ancient Hebrew Poetry is a weblog of John F. Hobbins. Opinions expressed herein do not reflect those of his professional affiliations. Unless otherwise indicated, the contents of Ancient Hebrew Poetry, including all text, images, and other media, are original and licensed under a Creative Commons License.

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    Copyright © 2005 by John F Hobbins.