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« Mal comune, mezzo gaudio | Main | I Love Languages »

Learning Dead Languages is a Drag

Read this, if you don’t believe me. You’ll be laughing out loud.

My first class in Hebrew was nothing like the seminary Greek class Lingamish describes in the link. I was 15 at the time. My teacher, a bouncy grad student named Ruth Driss, probably all of 23, marched into the classroom and informed us that she would speak to us in Hebrew, and only Hebrew, during class. And we would respond to her in Hebrew, and only Hebrew, during class.

By now I was getting excited. Ruth exuded enthusiasm and energy. And I, well I needed to go to the bathroom.

That’s how I learned my very first sentence (not word, which is bad pedagogy) in the language I came to love, thanks also to Ruth:

אני רוצה להשתין

In English, that’s “I have to go pee.”

What a nice way to start.

I was fortunate to learn Hebrew in this way. Better to start out with modern Hebrew, and then segue into biblical Hebrew.

Randall Buth and like-minded pedagogues are right to teach dead languages, including biblical Greek and Hebrew, as if they were living languages. There are many who advocate for teaching Latin as a living language. Menachem Mansoor taught us biblical Hebrew according to the ulpan method. I don’t ever remember thinking of Hebrew as a dead language.

Biblical Hebrew and Greek can be taught as living languages. Generally speaking, they are not. Language instruction, as normally endured, more often follows the pattern described by Lingamish.

UPDATE: No, Peter Kirk and I did not consult before posting with similar emphases. He makes some points more fully than I do. Go here.

For Bible trivia on peeing and such, look below the fold.

A frozen phrase to describe a male in ancient Hebrew is:

מַשְׁתִּין בְּקִיר

That is, “one who pees against a wall.’ How appropriate. Not something a female does. The phrase occurs 6x in the Tanakh. For some reason, the phrase is not rendered literally in modern translations.

 

The term for ‘urine,’ occurring only in the plural, is from the same hollow root (שׁין; note the unusual infixed t in the Hiphil form cited above; cf. the equivalent verb in Akkadian, on which it might be based):

לֶֽאֱכֹל אֶת־חֲרֵיהֶם (צוֹאָתָם)

וְלִשְׁתּוֹת אֶת־שֵׁנֵיהֶם (מֵימֵי רַגְלֵיהֶם) עִמָּכֶם׃

The above is a quote from Isa 36:12 (// 2 Kings 18:27). The Ketiv readings (which I’ve vocalized) were probably considered vulgar. The whole may be translated:

who are going to[1] eat their dung (waste)

and drink their pee (the water of their legs) along with you.

Quite the rhetorician, that Rab-shakeh.

The details, but not the meaning, of another expression in ancient Hebrew is disputed:

אַךְ מֵסִיךְ הוּא אֶת־רַגְלָיו (Judges 3:24)       

וַיָּבֹא שָׁאוּל לְהָסֵךְ אֶת־רַגְלָיו    (1 Sam 24:4)

“Ack! He must be relieving himself.”

“And Saul entered to relieve himself.”

According to BDB, the verb in the expression derives from סכך ‘cover.’ This comment follows: “אֶת־רַגְלָיו, i.e. with long garments, euphemism for evacuating the bowels, from posture assumed.”

But in that case, one might have expected the preposition על ‘over’ before the thing covered. I favor a derivation from סוך ‘pour.’ ‘Legs’ on this view is an evasive reference, or euphemism, for that which is between the legs. Lit., ‘make pour the legs.’ It must be remembered, of course, that רגלים in ancient Hebrew, like ידים, has a broader reference than ‘feet’ and ‘hands,’ respectively: ‘legs’ and ‘arms’ are sometimes the appropriate renderings (for the first, see Ezek 16:25; for the second, see Jer 38:12).

I don’t know if I’m the first to suggest this. It's hard to believe I am.

UPDATE: Tyler Williams and Duane Smith suggest other ways to understand the idiom “he that pisseth against the wall” (KJV). Take a look!

[1] Ingressive use of the infinitive; syntactically, a kind of relative clause (are you reading this,

Robert Holmstedt?).

July 17, 2007 |

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Great minds think alike, they say! Well, you and I both thought of a great mind, Randall Buth. And maybe we both love Hebrew because we didn't have to learn it the old-fashioned way.

As for the last part of your post, there is a parallel here in the closely related languages Azerbaijani and Turkish. In Azerbaijani qıç means "leg", but the Turkish cognate (spelled with a "k" at the beginning, I won't spell it out so as not to offend any Turkish readers) means what is between the male legs. The Azerbaijani word is actually going out of use because of increasing contact with Turks. Well, we have the same situation in the UK, in which the good old-fashioned KJV word for what you call a "rooster" is in decline even over here to avoid offending Americans.

Posted by: Peter Kirk | July 17, 2007 at 05:37 PM

Interesting theory on going pee. My take on that idiom may be found here.

Posted by: Tyler Williams | July 17, 2007 at 05:55 PM

Thanks, Tyler, for a great link.

My little Anna likes to announce what she is about to go and do before she does it, no. 1 or no. 2. In favor of no. 1 for the verbal expression is the apparently related nominal expression מי רגלים.

Posted by: John Hobbins | July 17, 2007 at 06:14 PM

Hi John,

Of course I'm reading. What other blog has consistently insightful biblical discussion (slanted toward the Hebrew Bible in particulars) and reminds me how to "take a leak" in Hebrew? :-)

Unfortunately, I can't say that my start on Hebrew was as exciting. I started studying Hebrew on my own (with Mansoor and through UW's correspondence program). To think that I couldn't pronounce anything decently for over a year!

I agree that Hebrew learning should be fun, dynamic, and use as much of our language receptors as possible (eyes, ears, smell, movement, etc.) However, I can't say that I agree with your enthusiasm for Randy Buth's method in all the particulars. And my participation in a BH pedagogy workshop this summer, at which we tested and refined teaching materials build solely on the communicative learning approach and in which Randy participated as well, has only confirmed my position that ancient language teaching should be an (albeit odd) mixture of the grammar-translation approach as well as the communicative learning approach. Our goals simply differ too much from a modern language sequence. ?אתה מסכים אתי או לא

As for the construction in question, I would neither take it as a relative nor take the preposition על as a continuation of the prep. אל in the previous clause. Instead, the על PP is a way to express obligation, e.g., עלי ללכת 'I have to go'. So, this part of the verse is best translated, in my humble opinion, "Won't the men sitting on the wall have to eat their dung and drink their urine with you?" (lit. "isn't it incumbent upon them men sitting on the wall to eat...")

Posted by: Robert Holmstedt | July 17, 2007 at 06:24 PM

Robert,

By all means, you could be right about the Isa // 2 Kgs passage. It is true that NJPSV, NRSV, etc. translate with a relative clause, and not in terms of an expression of obligation, but that makes your counter-proposal all the more interesting.

I imagine you're right that a hybrid approach to teaching ancient languages will ultimately prove best. I'm still learning here.

For example, I am beginning to think it might be better to teach Hebrew without vowels on paper as much as possible, or in a two-phase process.

But I'll know better after trying it out on guinea pigs this fall.

Posted by: John Hobbins | July 17, 2007 at 06:48 PM

John,

Well, if there's one thing I'm pretty familiar with, it's the syntax of relative clauses. :-)

I find it interesting that you're going to teach without vowels. My grad instructor and I have reached the same essential conclusion and are also going to teach without vowel pointing early on. Then I'm going to make sure in 2nd year that they are not dependent on the vowel points by having them read unpointed biblical texts as well as selections from epigraphic and DSS texts (and maybe a few bits of Ben Sira). It sounds like so much fun I can hardly wait.

By the way, I should have said that I agree with the idea that biblical and modern should both be studied (for those who have such an opportunity). Apart from the differences (which I think are more the area of semantics than in basic syntax), a modern course fills the second language acquisition holes left by studying biblical Hebrew. It's a marriage that should happen more often and not only has my personal appreciation (or empathy) for Hebrew as a language increased, so has my ability to carry out research on and in it.

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    by Stephen L. Cook, professor of Old Testament / Hebrew Bible at Virginia Theological Seminary
  • C. Orthodoxy
    Christian, Contemporary, Conscientious… or Just Confused, by Ken Brown, a very thoughtful blog (archive). Ken is currently a Dr. Theol. student at Georg-August-Universität in Göttingen, part of The Sofja-Kovalevskaja Research Group studying early Jewish Monotheism. His dissertation will focus on the presentation of God in Job.
  • Catholic Bibles
    a thoughtful blog about Bible translations by Timothy, who has a degree in sacred theology from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome (Angelicum) and teaches theology in a Catholic high school in Michigan
  • Chrisendom
    irreverent blog with a focus on the New Testament, by Chris Tilling, New Testament Tutor for St Mellitus College and St Paul's Theological Centre, London
  • Claude Mariottini
    a perspective on the Old Testament and current events by a professor of Old Testament at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, Chicagoland, Illinois
  • Codex: Biblical Studies Blogspot
    by Tyler Williams, a scholar of the Hebrew Bible and cognate literature, now Assistant Professor of Theology at The King's University College in Edmonton, Alberta (archive)
  • Colours of Scripture
    reflections on theology, philosophy, and literature, by Benjamin Smith, afflicted with scriptural synaesthesia, and located in London, England
  • Complegalitarian
    A team blog that discusses right ways and wrong ways Scripture might help in the social construction of gender (old archive only; more recent archive, unfortunately, no longer publicly available)
  • Connected Christianity
    a place to explore what it might be like if Christians finally got the head, heart, and hands of their faith re-connected (archive)
  • Conversational Theology
    Smart and delightful comment by Ros Clarke, a Ph.D. student at the University of the Highlands and Islands, at the (virtual) Highland Theological College (archive)
  • Daily Hebrew
    For students of biblical Hebrew and the ancient Near East, by Chip Hardy, a doctoral student at the University of Chicago
  • Daniel O. McClellan
    a fine blog by the same, who is pursuing a master of arts degree in biblical studies at Trinity Western University just outside of Vancouver, BC.
  • Davar Akher
    Looking for alternative explanations: comments on things Jewish and beyond, by Simon Holloway, a PhD student in Classical Hebrew and Biblical Studies at The University of Sydney, Australia
  • Deinde
    News and Discussion by Danny Zacharias
  • Discipulus scripturae
    Nathan Stitt's place
  • Dr. Claude Mariottini
    balanced comment by a professor of Old Testament at Northern Baptist Seminary, Lombard IL
  • Dr. Platypus
    insightful comment by Darrell Pursiful, editor at Smyth & Helwys Publishing, on the New Testament faculty of Mercer University
  • Dust
    A diary of Bob MacDonald's journey through the Psalms and other holy places in the Hebrew Bible
  • Eclexia
    The heart and mind of this Bible and theology blogger sing in unison
  • Eat, Drink, and be Merry
    The journey of a grad student with a love for ancient languages at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary (archive)
  • Elizaphanian
    Rev Sam tussles with God, and limps away
  • Emerging from Babel
    Stephen investigates the potential of narrative and rhetorical criticism as a tool for expounding scripture
  • Evangelical Textual Criticism
    A group blog on NT and OT text-critical matters
  • Evedyahu
    excellent comment by Cristian Rata, Lecturer in Old Testament of Torch Trinity Graduate School of Theology, Seoul, Korea
  • Exegetica Digita
    discussion of Logos high-end syntax and discourse tools – running searches, providing the downloads (search files) and talking about what can be done and why it might matter for exegesis, by Mike Heiser
  • Exegetisk Teologi
    careful exegetical comment by Stefan Green (in Swedish)
  • Exploring Our Matrix
    Insightful reflections by James McGrath, ass't. professor of religion, Butler University
  • Faith Matters
    Mark Alter's place
  • Ferrell's Travel Blog
    comments of biblical studies, archaeology, history, and photography by a tour guide of Bible lands and professor emeritus of the Biblical Studies department at Florida College, Temple Terrace (FL)
  • Fors Clavigera
    James K. A. Smith, professor of philosophy at Calvin College, thinks out loud.
  • Friar's Fires
    an insightful blog by a pastor with a background in journalism, one of three he pens
  • Gentle Wisdom
    A fearless take on issues roiling Christendom today, by Peter Kirk, a Bible translator
  • Giluy Milta B‘alma
    by Ezra Chwat and Avraham David of the Institute of Microfilmed Hebrew Manuscripts, Jewish National and Hebrew University Library, Jerusalem
  • He is Sufficient
    insightful comment on Bible translations, eschatology, and more, by Elshaddai Edwards
  • Higgaion
    by Chris Heard, Professor of Religion, Pepperdine University
  • Idle Musings of a Bookseller
    by James Spinti of Eisenbrauns
  • if i were a bell, i'd ring
    Tim Ricchiuiti’s place
  • Imaginary Grace
    Smooth, witty commentary by Angela Erisman (archive). Angela Erisman is a member of the theology faculty at Xavier University
  • James' Thoughts and Musings
    by James Pate, a doctoral student at HUC-JIR Cincinnati
  • Jewish Philosophy Place
    by Zachary (Zak) Braiterman, who teaches modern Jewish thought and philosophy in the Department of Religion at Syracuse University
  • kata ta biblia
    by Patrick George McCollough, M. Div. student, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena CA
  • Ketuvim
    Learned reflection from the keyboard of Jim Getz
  • Kilbabo
    Ben Johnson’s insightful blog
  • Kruse Kronicle - contemplating the intersection of work, the global economy, and Christian mission
    top quality content brought to readers by Michael W. Kruse
  • Larry Hurtado's blog
    emeritus professor of New Testament Language, Literature & Theology, University of Edinburgh
  • Law, Prophets, and Writings
    thoughtful blogging by William R. (Rusty) Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies as College of the Ozarks and managing editor for Journal for the Evangelical Study of the Old Testament
  • Lingamish
    delightful fare by David Ker, Bible translator, who also lingalilngas.
  • Looney Fundamentalist
    a scientist who loves off-putting labels
  • Menachem Mendel
    A feisty blog on rabbinic literature and other Judaica by Michael Pitkowsky, Rabbinics Curriculum Coordinator at the Academy for Jewish Religion and adjunct instructor at Jewish Theological Seminary (New York)
  • mu-pàd-da
    scholarly blog by C. Jay Crisostomo, grad student in ANE studies at ?
  • Narrative and Ontology
    Astoundingly thoughtful comment from Phil Sumpter, a Ph.D. student in Bible, resident in Bonn, Germany
  • New Epistles
    by Kevin Sam, M. Div. student at the Lutheran Theological Seminary, Saskatoon SK
  • NT Weblog
    Mark Goodacre's blog, professor of New Testament, Duke University
  • Observatório Bíblico
    wide-ranging blog by Airton José da Silva, Professor de Bíblia Hebraica/Antigo Testamento na Faculdade de Teologia do CEARP de Ribeirão Preto, Brasile (in Portuguese)
  • Observatório Bíblico
    Blog sobre estudos acadêmicos da Bíblia, para Airton José da Silva, Professor de Bíblia Hebraica / Antigo Testamento na Faculdade de Teologia do CEARP de Ribeirão Preto, SP.
  • Occasional Publications
    excellent blogging by Daniel Driver, Brevard Childs' scholar extraordinaire
  • old testament passion
    Great stuff from Anthony Loke, a Methodist pastor and Old Testament lecturer in the Seminari Theoloji, Malaysia
  • Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Blog
    A weblog created for a course on the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha at the University of St. Andrews, Scotland, by James Davila (archive)
  • On the Main Line
    Mississippi Fred MacDowell's musings on Hebraica and Judaica. With a name like that you can't go wrong.
  • p.ost an evangelical theology for the age to come
    seeking to retell the biblical story in the difficult transition from the centre to the margins following the collapse of Western Christendom, by Andrew Perriman, independent New Testament scholar, currently located in Dubai
  • PaleoJudaica
    by James Davila, professor of Early Jewish Studies at the University of St. Andrews, St Andrews, Scotland. Judaism and the Bible in the news; tidbits about ancient Judaism and its context
  • Pastoral Epistles
    by Rick Brannan and friends, a conceptually unique Bible blog
  • Pen and Parchment
    Michael Patton and company don't just think outside the box. They are tearing down its walls.
  • Pisteuomen
    by Michael Halcomb, pastor-scholar from the Bluegrass State
  • Pseudo-Polymath
    by Mark Olson, an Orthodox view on things
  • Purging my soul . . . one blog at a time
    great theoblog by Sam Nunnally
  • Qumranica
    weblog for a course on the Dead Sea Scrolls at the University of St. Andrews, Scotland, taught by James R. Davila (archive)
  • Ralph the Sacred River
    by Edward Cook, a superb Aramaist
  • Random Bloggings
    by Calvin Park, M. Div. student at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, South Hamilton MA
  • Resident aliens
    reflections of one not at home in this world
  • Revelation is Real
    Strong-minded comment from Tony Siew, lecturer at Trinity Theological College, Singapore
  • Ricoblog
    by Rick Brannan, it's the baby pictures I like the most
  • Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth
    Nick Norelli's fabulous blog on Bible and theology
  • SansBlogue
    by Tim Bulkeley, lecturer in Old Testament, Carey Baptist College (New Zealand). His Hypertext Commentary on Amos is an interesting experiment
  • Ancient Near Eastern Languages
    texts and files to help people learn some ancient languages in self study, by Mike Heiser
  • Midrash, etc.
    A fine Hebrew-to-English blog on Midrash, by Carl Kinbar, Director of the New School for Jewish Studies and a facultm member at MJTI School of Jewish Studies.
  • Phil Lembo what I'm thinking
    a recovering lawyer, now in IT, with a passion for a faith worth living
  • Roses and Razorwire
    a top-notch Levantine archaeology blog, by Owen Chesnut, a doctoral student at Andrews University (MI)
  • Scripture & Theology
    a communal weblog dedicated to the intersection of biblical interpretation and the articulation of church doctrine, by Daniel Driver, Phil Sumpter, and others
  • Scripture Zealot
    by Jeff Contrast
  • Serving the Word
    incisive comment on the Hebrew Bible and related ancient matters, with special attention to problems of philology and linguistic anthropology, by Seth L. Sanders, Assistant Professor in the Religion Department of Trinity College, Hartford, CT
  • Singing in the Reign
    NT blog by Michael Barber (JP University) and Brad Pitre (Our Lady Holy Cross)
  • Stay Curious
    excellent comment on Hebrew Bible and Hebrew language topics, by Karyn Traphagen, graduate, Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia PA (archive)
  • Sufficiency
    A personal take on the faith delivered to the saints, by Bob MacDonald, whose parallel blog on the Psalms in Hebrew is a colorful and innovative experiment
  • The Sundry Times
    Gary Zimmerli's place, with comment on Bible translations and church renewal
  • Sunestauromai: living the crucified life
    by a scholar-pastor based in the Grand Canyon National Park
  • ta biblia
    blog dedicated to the New Testament and the history of Christian origins, by Giovanni Bazzana
  • Targuman
    by Christian Brady, targum specialist extraordinaire, and dean of Schreyer Honors College, Penn State University
  • Targuman
    on biblical and rabbinic literature, Christian theology, gadgetry, photography, and the odd comic, by Christian Brady, associate professor of ancient Hebrew and Jewish literature and dean of the Schreyer Honors College at Penn State
  • The Biblia Hebraica Blog
    a blog about Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, the history of the Ancient Near East and the classical world, Syro-Palestinian archaeology, early Judaism, early Christianity, New Testament interpretation, English Bible translations, biblical theology, religion and culture, philosophy, science fiction, and anything else relevant to the study of the Bible, by Douglas Magnum, PhD candidate, University of the Free State, South Africa
  • The Forbidden Gospels Blog
    by April DeConick, Professor of Biblical Studies, Rice University
  • The Naked Bible
    by Mike Heiser, academic editor at Logos Bible Software
  • The Reformed Reader
    by Andrew Compton, Ph.D. student in the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Cultures (focus on Hebrew and Semitic Languages) at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA)
  • The Sacred Page
    a blog written by three Catholic Ph.D.s who are professors of Scripture and Theology: Michael Barber, Brant Pitre and John Bergsma
  • The Talmud Blog
    a group blog on Talmud News, Reviews, Culture, Currents, and Criticism
  • Theological German
    a site for reading and discussing theological German, by Mark Alter
  • theoutwardquest
    seeking spirituality as an outward, not an inward quest, by David Corder
  • This Lamp
    Incisive comment on Bible translations in the archives, by Rick Mansfield
  • Thoughts on Antiquity
    By Chris Weimer and friends, posts of interest on ancient Greek and Roman topics (archive). Chris is a graduate student at the City University of New York in Classics
  • Threads from Henry's Web
    Wide-ranging comment by Henry Neufeld, educator, publisher, and author
  • Tête-à-Tête-Tête
    smart commentary by "smijer," a Unitarian-Universalist
  • Undeception
    A great blog by Mike Douglas, a graduate student in biblical studies
  • What I Learned From Aristotle
    the Judaica posts are informative (archive)
  • Bouncing into Graceland
    a delightful blog on biblical and theological themes, by Esteban Vázquez (archive)
  • Weblog
    by Justin Anthony Knapp, a fearless Wikipedian (archive)
  • Writing in the Dust
    A collection of quotes by Wesley Hill, a doctoral student in New Testament studies at Durham University (UK), and a Christian who seeks the charism of chastity
  • גֵּר־וְתוֹשָׁב
    by David Miller, Associate Professor of New Testament and Early Judaism, Briercrest College & Seminary, Caronport, Saskatchewan, Canada
  • ואל-תמכר
    Buy truth and do not sell: wisdom, instruction, and understanding - a blog by Mitchell Powell, student of life at the intersection of Christ, Christianity, and Christendom
  • משלי אדם
    exploring wisdom literature, religion, and other academic pursuits, by Adam Couturier, M.A. in Old Testament/Hebrew Bible (graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary)

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  • Ancient Hebrew Poetry is a weblog of John F. Hobbins. Opinions expressed herein do not reflect those of his professional affiliations. Unless otherwise indicated, the contents of Ancient Hebrew Poetry, including all text, images, and other media, are original and licensed under a Creative Commons License.

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    Copyright © 2005 by John F Hobbins.